Monday, March 03, 2014

"Christians" and grieving


Okay, so this dating fiasco I went through showed me I have a ways to go to deal with my grief and I have been trying.

I had a discussion with a “Director of Christian Ministry” on line today. I posted on-line that I ran into a psychologist and I was discussing grief with her so she suggested a book called “ZEN and the Art of Happiness”. I read the book and the basic theme is: “What ever happens is the best possible thing that can happen”. This is not something that helps people in grief.  In fact, it is one of the top ten things you shouldn't say to grieving people.

So this "Christian" guy posts, “If they had a relationship with Christ while here on earth, then physical death is the best thing that could have happened to them.”

Here is a list of stuff not to say to people who are grieving:
http://www.connect.legacy.com/profiles/blogs/top-ten-list-what-not-to-say-to-the-bereaved

Number 3 is, “It's better this way” and Number 6 is, “It's God's will”.

How does anyone with a compassionate bone in their body say this stuff. No idea, but, people do. I have had people say all these things to me.  This was particularly annoying because this is someone actually being paid to minister.  Imagine, paying someone to say this insensitive stuff.

This is a perfect example of unchristian behavior and a perfect example of the way some self proclaimed "Christians" alienate those who are seeking.  When "Christians" behave this way it destroys credibility.

What are Christians supposed to do?  Witness the Good News of the Forgiveness of Sin through Christ.

What do Pseudo-Christians do?  Witness about anything other than the Good News.  A few weeks ago I was having lunch with a friend who is gay and he told me that he really appreciated the fact that I am accepting of people and I don't spend all my time telling him he has to change or he will go to hell.

I explained that only sinners ended up in Heaven and I didn't see how his sins were any worse than those who judge others, in direct opposition to Christ's commandment, "Judge Not..."  In fact, I think gays are much more likely to get into Heaven than most self proclaimed "Christians" because a gay person is aware that they are committing a sin and a judgmental "Christian" believes they are righteous.



John D. Ayer
I was talking to a psychologist the other day about grieving and she suggested a book. I bought the book and read it.

Overall theme of the book: Tell yourself that everything that happens is the very best thing that can happen.

Think about that for a second. Who in their right mind tells someone grieving, someone who lost a son and a wife and a mother that it was the very best thing that could have happened?

Definitely need a sign for that psychologist.
Unlike · · Share · March 1 at 3:25pm ·

DofCM If they had a relationship with Christ while here on earth, then physical death is the best thing that could have happened to them.
3 hours ago · Like

John D. Ayer I hope you never have an opportunity to be tested on believing that losing your wife or child is the best thing that could have happened.
3 hours ago · Like

DofCM It seems you are only looking at this from your perspective. There are other things to consider. What if it was part of God's plan for them to leave this earth? I would also like to know exactly what the person meant by their deaths being "the best thing that could have happened."
2 hours ago · Like

DofCM I also assume that the circumstances surrounding someones death would dictate how someone feels about it
2 hours ago · Like

John D. Ayer Go read the book, ZEN and the art of hapiness.

The premise is actually a very good one and I used a similar meditation theme prior to the death of my son, my meditation theme was, "This is the best moment of my life because it is the moment I am now living." Later, when I became a Christian again I added "God made this moment and it is the best moment of my life because it is the moment I am living right now".

Jim, if you ever need to counsel someone who lost a child or a spouse I suggest you do not try and convince them that it was the best thing that could have happened to them. Take it from me, that is not a good direction to take.
2 hours ago · Like

John D. Ayer In fact, the best witness that I have about loss is comparing it to an amputation. Losing someone we love is like an amputation. We never get over it, or even past it, we just learn to live without that missing piece of us. It takes time and people learn at different rates.
2 hours ago · Like

DofCM I hope whoever you are seeing is a Christian, and practices from a scriptural foundation. Also, you are going to have to try harder to convince me that leaving this earth to be with my creator is not the best thing that could happen to me. I encourage you to above all seek God's comfort and guidence in your life no matter what situation you are in.
2 hours ago · Like

John D. Ayer Jim, Believe me, you don't want to encourage God to test your resolve on this issue.
2 hours ago · Like

John D. Ayer I can't loan that book, but, I can loan you my kindle with the book on it if you would like to read it. It isn't a bad book, just not a book for someone dealing with grief.
2 hours ago · Like

DofCM Im not asking God to test me in this area, but I know that I trust in the one who created me and know what awaits those who believe in Christ when they die!!!
2 hours ago · Like

DofCM Is it a secular book or rooted in scripture?
2 hours ago · Like

DofCM I dont have a kindle. I just recently got into the smart phone era!! lol
2 hours ago · Like

John D. Ayer It is a secular book about ZEN, which is a way of behavior that focuses the mind on the present moment rather than the past or the future. Most practitioners of ZEN are Buddhists, but, ZEN itself is not a religion.
about an hour ago · Like

DofCM Im familiar with zen. I was curious if it was being presented with Christian believes or not
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer Jim, until you have suffered the devastating loss of a spouse or a child I suggest that you don't tell people who have lost their children or their spouse that it is a good thing.

No, the book is not focused on Christ, but then, a lot of books that claim to be Christian don't focus on Christ either. A lot of books focus on people's interpretation of scripture rather than scripture.

I like ZEN because it is consistent with Christ's teaching about focusing on the moment and not worrying about the future.
about an hour ago · Like

DofCM So you are saying that unless i have personally experienced something, i am not qualified to speak on it? Why do you assume i havent lost a loved one. Again i will say, there is no better place to be then with our creator and redeemer. I am not sure why you disagree with that.
about an hour ago · Like

DofCM I tend to stay away from books that are not somehow Biblical. Unless i am researching something specific
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer No, Jim, again you are twisting my words. I suggested that until you have suffered a devastating, such as a spouse or a child, loss you shouldn't tell people who have that it is a good thing.

You are welcome to twist my words any way you like, but, I don't see how that helps either of us.
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer 2nd Timothy 3:16 tells us all scripture (the Greek actually translates as writing, not necessarily only writing pertaining to God. The way the word scripture was used in the 15th century is consistent with the Greek and inconsistent with how we use it today) is good for education.
about an hour ago · Like

DofCM What words did i twist?
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer I said:
Jim, until you have suffered the devastating loss of a spouse or a child I suggest that you don't tell people who have lost their children or their spouse that it is a good thing.

No, the book is not focused on Christ, but then, a lot of books that claim to be Christian don't focus on Christ either. A lot of books focus on people's interpretation of scripture rather than scripture.

I like ZEN because it is consistent with Christ's teaching about focusing on the moment and not worrying about the future.
about an hour ago · Like

DofCM I would you encourage you to further study the context of that passage, as paul was not referring to all writings
about an hour ago · Like

DofCM So what was your intent when you gave me that siggestion?
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer Really, I suggest that you go read it, because, in fact, he was. The passage above, 3:15, specifies "Holy Scripture" while 3:16 is more generic on the subject. Were your assumption to be correct the writer would have specified "Holy Scripture" a second time.
about an hour ago · Unlike · 1

John D. Ayer My intent was to suggest that until you have suffered the loss of a child or a spouse that you not tell people who have that it was for the best.

Even if you do suffer such a loss making that statement to someone who has might still get you into trouble, but, at least then you would have had the experience which gives your statement credibility.
about an hour ago · Like

DofCM Thats an incorrect assumption. He didnt need to be redundant. He was continuing his thought from the previous passage
about an hour ago · Like

DofCM Dont see how telling someone the truth would get me in trouble, atleast not with God, which is what matters
about an hour ago · Like

JHFW I rejoice knowing my son is with God but I grieve losing him and the hurt is as real today as it was June 8, 2013.
about an hour ago · Unlike · 2

DofCM So are you equating experience with credibility?
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer God will decide what truth is Jim and God's ways are beyond the thoughts of people.

Yes, experience gives people credibility. The Holy Ghost brings their own credibility and witnesses to those whose eyes can see and whose ears can hear when someone speaks from the spirit.
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer Jim, not once have you said anything like what Jane wrote. no backpedaling here and pretending you were saying something different.
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer What you have said, over and over, is that death is the best thing that can happen to someone who has a relationship with Christ. Not once have you validated any grief response. What you said was that the circumstances of a death influences how people feel about it.
about an hour ago · Like

John D. Ayer FYI Jane, I think the Holy Ghost prompted your post and I don't believe the Holy Ghost has prompted any of Jim's posts.
58 minutes ago · Like

John D. Ayer By the way, go study the Greek for 2Timothy 3:15-16. It might surprise you to know that there were two different Greek words used, G1121 and G1124. Go study before speaking without the spirit and from your own understanding.
49 minutes ago · Like

John D. Ayer
Jim, you wrote:
"If they had a relationship with Christ while here on earth, then physical death is the best thing that could have happened to them."

" It seems you are only looking at this from your perspective. There are other things to consider. What if it was part of God's plan for them to leave this earth?"

How does that, in any way, shape or form, come anywhere near what Jane wrote?

John D. Ayer http://www.connect.legacy.com/.../top-ten-list-what-not...
Top 10 Things Not to Say to the Bereaved
www.connect.legacy.com
Q. During a recent funeral, I overheard someone tell the adopted son of the dece...See More
27 minutes ago · Like · Remove Preview

DofCM This will be my last post...john, i pray that God continues to show his love to you and that you find complete comfort in Him alone
25 minutes ago · Like
John D. Ayer Jim, I appreciate your prayers. Your inaccurate reading of scripture and your completely insensitive comments were forgiven by me as soon as you made them.

I hope God finds a gentle way to teach you sensitivity for those who grieve because you are seriously lacking compassion.
19 minutes ago · Like

John D. Ayer I posted this exchange on my blog because it is a perfect example of unchristian behavior and a perfect example of what people who represent themselves as Christian do to alienate those who are seeking.
17 minutes ago · Like

DofCM What happened to your posts john?
8 minutes ago · Like

John D. Ayer What posts?
5 minutes ago · Like

DofCM nevermind, im still learning to use my "smartphone"
2 minutes ago · Like

John D. Ayer No prob.
2 minutes ago · Like

Addendum:

If you are interested in 2nd Timothy 3:15-16 the words used are http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%AE in 3:16

and then in 3:15 two different words are used to denote Holy Scripture,

Holy translated from: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B1%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82

Scripture translated from: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BC%CE%B1

Once someone studies and prays it become obvious that the subject matter changes between the two verses.

Addendum 2:
Notice that throughout our conversation I never disagreed with DofCM, I just pointed out that it would be a bad idea to tell people who have suffered a devastating loss that it is a good thing.

DofCM insists, "Also, you are going to have to try harder to convince me that leaving this earth to be with my creator is not the best thing that could happen to me."  This is just twisting my words, and this is a common method Satan uses.

DofCM insists, "Again i will say, there is no better place to be then with our creator and redeemer. I am not sure why you disagree with that."  again with the word twisting, I never said any such thing.  This is just false witness.  I never disagreed.

This is a perfect example of unChristian behavior.  In the statements by DofCM there is no compassion or sensitivity, there is misquoting of scripture by someone guided by their own understanding, there is false witness and twisting of the words of others.
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6 comments:

jg lenhart said...

I agree that trying to "not think" (just tell yourself the contradictory reason is that everything happens for the best) is very destructive!

Grief is the statement of the will of the individual that they know the object of their grief is never coming back in a physical sense. It is physically gone.

Thinking or day dreaming about the physical return of the object just prolongs the process of grief.

Realize that each of us exists not only physically, but emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. The confusion during grief comes from being limited from experiencing the object of our grief in one less aspect WHILE STILL being able to experience the object in three of the aspects.

That is why the triggers for grief occur with physical events. Without this understanding, grief is a seemingly random process where we ONLY get through the process once we have experienced EVERY physical trigger that exists...this may take years and can occur at any time!

When the grieving person realizes this, they can focus on accepting the fact the object of their grief is never physically coming back AND they are in control of how they want to experience the object of their grief as it relates to the emotional, mental, and spiritual. This choice CAN'T be made until the person has let go of the hope of seeing the obejct of their grief in a physical sense.

After all, we are much more than phsyical. Even what we see in the physical (DO and HAVE) are EFFECTS of the ARE.

Understanding who you are also results in being able to intentionally having more energy...which was another issue Lewis had during his grief.

Grief is a process that, when understood, can be experienced intentionally and lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and the ones' we can no longer experience physically.

If you are interested in discussing this, let me know. I've helped many people intentionally go through the grieving process so that they are able to discuss this period of their life without reacting destructively.

11:24 AM
John D. Ayer said...

JG: I agree to an extent with your explanation of physical triggers, but, I'm not sure I agree completely. For example, a woman at church came up behind me one day, touched me on my left shoulder and leaned over my right shoulder, exactly the way my late wife used to and I automatically turned to kiss her, stopping when I realized that it wasn't my wife. I actually felt good about it, not sad at all. I've been through a bunch of those triggers. Some make me sad, some make me laugh.

So let me ask you this, lost a child? Lost a spouse?

Here is the big one, the Good News is the forgiveness of Sin through Christ, who demonstrated the love of God by taking our sin on himself and dying on the Cross.

So, do non-Christians or recent converts to Christianity tell you how well you communicate the primary message of Christianity which is love and forgiveness?

That happens to me often, although, I find it increasingly hard to convince non-Christians that God has forgiven them when pseudo-christians are busy witnessing about how people who sin are going to hell and homosexuality and abortion and creation and anything else but the Good News of the Forgiveness of Sin and the Love demonstrated by Christ.

Which is exactly what Satan wants, pseudo-christians who witness the law from which we are released instead of the Good News.

In John:5-30-33 Christ tells us what he himself says is nothing and that one witnesses his words to prove that his word is true.

Truthfully, I've read your witness before and I don't believe the Holy Spirit directs your words. If the Holy Spirit did direct your words then the Holy Spirit would witness them some way. In my experience, by highlighting your words some way. I'm not perfect, but, God is pretty good about knocking me upside the head when I ignore the Spirit.

I appreciate your offer, and I believe it is sincere, even if not Spirit led. Since you tell me that YOU can help, which I believe is impossible.

I'll let God lead me and I have and will reject the leadership of pseudo-christians because Christ tells us real Christians are servants so people trying to lead, rather than serve, must be pseudo-chirstians.

A guide is a servant that leaders follow, yet the guide does not claim any leadership.

10:16 AM
jg lenhart said...

I know you aren't going to post this, so this is written to you with the Holy Spirit as witness:

You project a lot of meaning and intent on me that could be projected on you.

If you are okay with the Holy Spirit projecting the same meaning onto you that you project onto me, then don't change your response to me.

Justification of self is the same sin that got Adam kicked out of the garden and Satan kicked out of heaven.

Let the Holy Spirit judge between you and I.

5:57 PM
John D. Ayer said...

JG: You are such a judgmental authoritarian. You need to read your scripture. Paul was th king of sinners, yet, the Holy Ghost used him to rebuke other sinners.

IN THE CHURCH!

Pseudo-Christians apply doctrine to unbelievers and engage in ridiculous distractions to the Good News like Creationism, Abortion, Homosexuality with non-believers.

If Paul had tried picketing pagan temples where they engaged in prostitution he would have been tried, convicted and executed for blasphemy long before he wrote a single letter.

My suggestion, quit trying to force people to accept your narrow minded doctrine. Apply your doctrine to yourself.

Start helping people to grow in Christ as a servant. Quit being an authoritarian judge force doctrine on people.

Start accepting criticism, even if you believe it is incorrect, as a display of love.

Rebuke a wise man and he will love you. Rebuke a fool and he will hate you. Your posts define who you are.

8:55 AM
John D. Ayer said...

By the way JG, as I have mentioned before, if the Holy Ghost were witnessing the truth of your posts I would see it. The Holy Ghost is not witnessing the truth of your posts and while I accept your criticism as a display of love, I reject it because it is not truthful.

God will reward your words in perfect righteousness, just as God will reward mine.

8:59 AM
John D. Ayer said...

AND JG, you might want to read my latest post, http://jdayer.blogspot.com/2014/03/sunday-school-pseudo-christians-and.html

9:04 AM

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